Sachin was not dropped from Tests ever but I think he was dropped in one dayers between his first and second series for couple of matches after which he has not been dropped at all in any form of cricket.

i think he saw the writing on the wall, left out of the one day series and im sure he relised that the scg werent giving him a standing ovation for his 39 runs! he gave australia so many great starts to their innings over the years and every test nation at one point or another apart from maybe bangledesh copped the full brunt of mathew hayden. after his achillies injury he showed one or 2 glimpses of hope he could be the same opener he was before but he has chosen the right time to bow out!

I guess he timed his retirement at a time where he no more wanted to hinder the progress of team in transition. Sooner the players get thrown into ring better it is for aussies.

He never was a great player. It would be interesting to see how he would have played against wasim,waqar, ambrose, walsh, bishop, donald and all. I am not so sure about it.

He was great basher of ok bowling attacks. But fed on it turn himself to a very good player in the end against all attacks.

If I remember correctly, Mark Taylor actually dropped himself once when he wasn't playing well. What about when politics play a role in someone being dropped ala Waqar Younis.

While Hadlee certainly had a very long run I'm pretty sure he was dropped very early in his career. One NZer I can't remember getting the chop though is Stephen Fleming.

I don't think Azharuddin was dropped in test matches at any point during his career till he was banned. He was dropped for ODI series though.

Dear Anand
Only problem with your theory about weak attacks is it also must apply to Tendulkar and Lara as well. You are stating clearly how poor every other opening batsman for the past fifteen years has been as none of them have averaged 52 against the same bowling and in your own words that's "not great"! Only Bradman made more runs in fewer matches than Hayden, think about that. And if you don't consider him for one of the opening spots in your all-time team, you've really missed what everyone else has seen over the past fifteen years!

Good on yer Anand! The best six opening batsmen of all time have been Indians, we all know that, but for seventh best Hayden is a chance. Look him up on Statsguru and feel very foolish. Only Bradman made more runs in less matches and if Hayden faced rubbish, so did Lara and Tendulkar.
After all he averaged more than 100 in the first series against India in India so how bad were your bowlers?

Lara was dropped after his initial debut as he played in place of an injured player. I am also not very convinced about Matt's performance against quality bowlers. probably he should have retired little bit earlier.

Azhar was never dropped till Tendulkar took over the captaincy in 1999. He was selected again in 2000 and he played one test match, his 99th and his last one at Bangalore and was then banned from all forms of cricket. Would he fit the bill here or not?

I don't think Martin Crowe and Stephen Fleming were ever dropped. I also think Dan Vettori will never be dropped in his career.

Kapil Dev was never dropped.

Hi all.. I think Haydo was certainly up there... he was no doubt a good player.. and I have no problem in calling him a Great batsman.. I think he has done enough... but he cant certainly be compared with Tendulkar/Lara... they have played a lot more games.. and to be in that streak I really think one would have to a little bit more... his fellow counterpart Ponting is more likely to make that batch.. and I do agree with the people who say that Hayden didnt face the fierce Paki/WI pacemen.. that Sachin/Lara did in 90's.. also Hayden did not have to face McGrath/Gillispi as well.. Regarding best Test Opener I would say that would be Sunil Gavaskar.. again for the quality of Bowlers he faced... and his awesome records against them.... and as far as my knowledge goes.. I have read it somewhere that Tendulkar has never been dropped.. Two other interesting candidates for this list would be Kapil Dev and Imran Khan dont think they were ever dropped.. What about Ian Botham, Hensi Cronje..

Best 6 opening batsmen of all time Indians? What about Sutcliffe and Hobbs? Look them up on statsguru,Sutcliffe averaged over 60,Hobbs a run or two under - and they played on uncovered pitches.Don't think Botham was ever dropped for tests,unless you count the ban in 1986 as being dropped,but he was selected for the next test as soon as the ban was up.

I think Muhammed Yousuf hasnt been dropped thus far because of form ..i remember him being dropped once because of some discipline thing

Rext / Fred,

Don't hide behind stats, you always miss the 'real' picture.

1. Hayden was dropped twice in his career 1994 and 1997 both for below-par performances against SA. Sachin and Lara were never dropped.

2. From 1994 till Feb 2001, Hayden hit only 1 test hundred (14 tests matches played by him). By 2001/02, WI (Ambrose), Pak (Wasim, Waqar), SA (Donald) bowling attacks were all on the wane. i.e while Hayden failed against them, Sachin and Lara didn't fail and played test cricket through the '90s.

3. 'Slats' a better opening batsmen: Hayden was not able to get into the Aussie team regularly from 1994-2000, so how can he be the greatest opener of all time? The reality was till Slater had "non-cricketing problems" he was the better opener and reflected in fact that Hayden came in only when he almost retired!
-surely no great wouldn't be sitting on sidelines for 6 years that to by Slater!

Hayden is a 'great' player, don't get me wrong but no where near the greatest!

I suppose Anand might have been making the point that in his era, the best bowling/fielding side was Australia so Hayden obviously didn't face them. Mind you, he did score heavily in Shield cricket so he must have faced them and succeeded. Also, as the dominant side, Australia were rarely under pressure so I suppose Hayden was regularly playing from in front but that's hardly his fault.
I didn't want to turn this into a Hayden eulogy though. The main thrust of my article was to see if we can identify more people who have never been dropped in their Test careers and whether that is one (relatively accurate) guide to "greatness". Of course it's not perfect but how many of the so-called modern greats were dropped?

Politics play quite a bit of role in dropping (or selecting) a player, at least in the subcontinent. Hence, this cannot be a criteria. It is also nonsensical to say that Hayden can massacre only weak attacks. By that logic, this argument can be extended to any great that has played this game. Also, in the current context, one can look at whether one can play all the three forms to be considered great. I see only a very few players doing that like Ponting, Dhoni, Sangakarra.

Why does everything turn into India vs. Australia or Us against Them!! Here's an outstanding opening batsman who's given up the game. Lets just salute and thank the man for all the joys (and pains! he scored a lot of runs against India!) he gave us.
Its always difficult to compare players from across eras. The best anyone can do is to perform against the opposition he is confronted with. And in his era, Matt Hayden was definitely the most intimidating and probably the most successful opening batsman.
I'll miss watching Hayden in action (except against India! I'll be thankful he isnt there then!).

How come he was good only against weak bowling attacks? It means Indian bowling attack was also very weak? ..check his 5 best innings, the one I remember was against Shoaib Akhter and company, and akhter was on his peak, let me tell u Akhter got 5 top order aussies in 2 overs, Australia still won the match, in that series only Hayden scored freely against Akhter and he was hit on the head by Akhter also, so hats off to Hayden, one of the all time great openers!!!

please add one more criteria to judge the greatness, ie batting average at home and away. this will tell you the total number of runs scored at home and away and also the range of pitch conditions he faced. yes, not to forget the number of hundreds scored at home and abroad.we are discussing something that is similar to measuring the length and breadth of the universe. a mystery too difficult to solve. thanks.

james

I think the question is about whether Haydon should have quit because he was dropped. Since he did not get runs like the century that Dravid got and perhaps because he knew that he was not going to be picked for the ashes he decided to go. If he didn't, then he might have been 'advised' a la Ganguly to I, while the average is still 50!

As for greatness, you have to ask opposition bowlers that question. Barring Zimbabwe and Bangladesh, bowlers bowling to Bradman, Richards, Gavaskar, Lara, Tendulkar, Dravid, Ponting and others always considered them prize wickets and the celebration following their fall was a great indicator of this. Haydos did not command that sort of a feeling or reaction. On the other hand, if you are talking about aggression don't forget Anwar, Greenidge, Jayasuriya, Sehwag, Gambhir, etc who have shown / are still showing great form and runs to boot.

In conclusion, IMHO, Haydos did the right hyhing by quitting now. And, he was a good batsman, not a great one!

I think it is well known that Lara retired when he heard that he was not going to picked for the upcoming test series to Eng in 2007. Just weeks before he was quoted as saying he was looking forward to playing in Eng again. His form was still excellent in Nov 2006 (his last test series) in scored 61, 122, 216, 0, 49 in three test in Pakistan. Yes everybody remembers Lara leaving while being on top i.e. leading run maker, record breaker etc but i doubt it was his decision to retire then, unlike Hayden who has seen his form collaspe.

I do not understand how can people call Dhoni great! He has done absolutely nothing of note as compared to the other greats we are discussing here. He is just starting out , give him time , dont judge him as yet. The 20-20 bandwagon doesnt mean anything.

Hayden has been great but that is after 2001 before that no one knew that he even existed. so we cant compare him with other great cricketers.since australia was doing so will for the last deacde thats why the axe never fell on hayden for low scoring.Now when asustralis is not doing well, then every one is looking at hayden.Thats how the game has always been. IN my view i cant put him on the top of the list for gratest opener.

Where is the name of RAhul DRavid.he is never been droped from test match .he has played 130 test match missing one due to injury.

Pakistan's dashing Asif Iqbal was never dropped when available, however he made his debut in 1963-1964.

@ Suhas: Kapil Dev was dropped for one match in his career. He was dropped for the Calcutta test match against England (84 I think it was). The same game tht Azhar made his debut and scored a hundred. Kapil had played a rash shot and got out in the previous Test and the selectors dropped him supposedly on disciplinary grounds.

Lara's scores in his last series were 61 & 122, 216, 8& 49; so why would anyone ask "when" about his retirement?

To be fair to Matt, he can't be held responsible for the decline in bowling standards. I dont recall any opener other than Gavaskar averaging 50+. Apart from Hayden of course. Numbers dont lie. So, hayden has got to be one of the 2 greatest opening batsmen of all time in the world, not just for Australia.

How do you forget Hayden's ODI opening partner Gilchrist? He was NEVER dropped during his test career for any reason at all (even injury/rest). Surely, one of the greatest Batsmen of the modern era (never mind that he kept the wickets too), on par with Dravid/Jayasurya/Kallis, and just a class below Tendulkar/Lara/Ponting.

Hayden... I do not rate as highly as Gilchrist or Ponting or even Hussey. Forget being the greatest batsman of all time, he wasn't even the greatest Aussie batsman of his era.

About being the greatest openers of all time... nope. Not even the greatest openers of the modern times (post 1975); I rate both Greenidge and Gavaskar above him. And, I suspect Australia itself has probably produced a fair number of openers better than Haydos in their long and glorious cricketing history (of which, I confess, I do not exactly have knowledge even close to be called encyclopedic). Hayden, after all, did not have to face Bodyline.

Interestingly Hayden's away average is 41, Ponting has 50, Tendulkar 53, Dravid 56, Lara 48, Sehwag 51, Kallis 52, Inzamam 46. It actually tells where Hayden stands among the current prolific scorers itself.

May cricinfo needs to do a feature on which players have never been dropped in their careers. This article is pure speculation. Too many 'maybes' and wild guesses. What is the point of this article anyways?

Well I always believe that Matthew Hayden was a world class player. What I cannot agree with people who say Hayden was an all time great player. Modern great may be. But no way on earth an all time great. I will list out the stats. He averaged 58 in Australia (where pitches neither swing nor turn ) and 41 away from home. He scored 22 of his 30 hundreds in Australia. He averaged 34 in England, 34 in South Africa, 28 in New Zealand and just about 40 in Sri Lanka (where wickets helped bowlers a bit). In 2001 series, the only time he was successful in India Kumble was not there. He also did not face a high quality bowling line up apart from 2005 ashes. So face the harsh truth Matthew Hayden aint an all time great player. He also did not face Warne and Mcgrath. (Mcgrath, Warne and Muralitharan (Kumble to some extent) were the only 3 great bowlers during Hayden's flourishing period.

Well said, Sankalp.

Australia's greatest opener? For my money, no. I'd pick Ponsford and possibly Mark Taylor for his safer/more brilliant hands in the slips and his reading of the game.

Did Ambrose ever get dropped?

I dont think Hayden stands the best batsman, but definately be part of thr worlds best 5 openers. he has the dare to play as agressive and certainly like run machine.He may dropped in his early carrier but once he cemented his place in Aussies team in 2001 he never seen back. We have to salute him for cementing his place irrespective of competitive player in aussies side. i think the same may be applied to the Simon katich in near future.

Chinmay, I think you'll find that Gilchrist's name was mentioned in the article.
Rizwan, I think you'll find the same mention for Dravid.
Anyone have any definite evidence for Miandad? I also mentioned Cronje but don't yet know the answer. What about Greenidge?
Phil Knight - are you sure Vettori has never been dropped, even early in his career? He certainly looks pretty invincible these days!
Sandeep Salunke - the point of this article was to try to do exactly what everyone has done thus far - engage in a friendly discussion about this topic and re-live some memories. It never pretended to be an accurate thesis. Sometimes, an enjoyable blog is where we can just exchange thoughts and opinions from all over the world, purely for the shared love of the game. I made it clear that it was a bit of guesswork and I was hoping various people would throw up some interesting names that I hadn't considered. Like Vettori for example.

Was Hayden good or great? Was he a better opener than, say, Hobbs? It seems we will never be able to agree. We all have our opinions coloured by when we saw these batsman in action and what we regard as important.

It seems all we can agree on is that Bradman was the greatest of all, an average ~50% better than his nearest rival makes it unequivocal.

Wrong! Not everyone agrees on that! Clarrie Grimmot maintained that Trumper better than Bradman and he might even have a point, "Trumper played equally well against the best fast or slow bowlers. He also played on some treacherous wickets and batted magnificently in conditions that made all the others look second-class."

What's my point? Just that, perhaps this isn't an argument to get worked up about. Some will say he was good, some will say he was a great. An opinion is an individual thing and the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I dont know what Qualified Mr. Jeh to write on this blog by cricinfo, but I find that his comments are either very controversial or short of facts.
To put it straight, it looks like more than commenting on cricket as a subject, he is trying to prove to other aussies that he is a aussie.
As for the comments from Indians, half of them just are too aggressive to understand any comment laterally. They just write to prove they exist.
And Mr Jeh, coming back to you, atleast start reading some good books, can be any subject to atleast understand how to write blogs.
Google the grammer of blogging, you will get a much better understanding of how to write.
And stop trying to prove so hard that you are a aussie. All aussies know you are a aussie and nobody doubts it.

Gavaskar was dropped for disciplinary reasons in 1975; Sobers and Kanhai were never dropped though the former was out of the series with Australia in 1973 possibly on contract disputes with the Board; interestingly, Richards was initially not in the starting XI in his second test in Delhi in 1974-75 - he had made only 3 and 4 on his debut - Lawrence Rowe dropped out that morning and Richards got in and made 192. Miandad I believe was dropped in the West Indies in 1977 - Greg Chappell, Glenn Turner, Walter Hammond, Jack Hobbs were never dropped.

Just consider this: Hayden's career got going in 2001 and he retired by the first week of 2009. So he has scored about 8000 runs in 8 years - an average of 1000 runs a calender year ( if you'd discount his fales start to test cricket). This is phenomenal: whether he scored in Aus or elsewhere or who ever was his opponents. However, it would be hard to call him an alltime great, if I think of Sunil Gavaskar, Gordon Greenidge or even Geoff Boycott. Hayden is a lenegend in his terms: Brute power, aggression, sledging - Was he elegant?

Was Allen Border ever dropped? Aravinda de Silva? Greg Chappell?
My 2 cents. Yes, Hayden was a modern great. All-time Test XI? Probably not, but over 120-odd years of test cricket there are only a handful of players that can't be replaced (or maybe just one), who cares? In the last 20 years he has scored more runs than any opener. To justify this by saying he never had to play Australia is to belittle the rest of the cricketing world as hapless and helpless (debatable). As someone above mentioned, his performance against pakistan/shoaib in Sharjah proves his ability. Five consecutive years scoring over 1000 runs!
Stop the hating and celebrate the entertainment he gave.

Tendulkar was never, ever dropped. This I can say for sure.

Kapil Dev was dropped for 1 Test in 1984-85 for disciplinary reasons, but not for form. On form, he was never dropped.

Kapil was dropped for disciplinary measures once in his career or else he would have played consecutive tests. Tendulkar missed tests through injury and Lara missed them because.... he was lara. But hayden definetely is in my book as the the opening batsman to team up with gavaskar in the all time XI. Even though he retired when he was waning i doubt all of us would have been this sceptical had he retired at the same time as say.. gilchrist?

Kapil was rather famously dropped from the 3rd test at Kolkata against England (84-85) for a really poor shot in the Delhi test which preceded it in the same series. It had created a lot of furore at the time.

Hayden was a fantastic opening batsman, but not an all-time great of the world game and well behind a handful of Australian openers from years gone by. He spent the best part of a decade wallowing in shield cricket because he wasn't up to it against the world class pace attacks of the 90's such as Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Wasim, Waqar, Donald, De Villiers and company.

He returned in 2001 when only 35 year old Donald and Waqar remained, both down on pace and carrying injuries that ended their careers.

During his dominant post 2001 career when all the best bowlers were Australian, he faced top line attacks only a handful of times and failed. Shane Bond pre-injury at his best made Hayden look silly, injury free Jones and Freddy in the 05 Ashes reduced him to a spectator at 2nd slip.

Lara, Sachin, Dravid, Ponting, Kallis et al - all succeeded in the 90's where Hayden couldn't. They all cashed in post 2001 just like Hayden too, but their 90's runs count for much much more!

Hi All,

I have nothing against Matt. He was a very very good player. But he was not great! I stand by that. Great is used so often these days that it has lost its significant. I would have not put Ponting in the same league as Sachin and Lara had he not scored that hundred against India last year. You have to score runs against pretty good attacks. Why was he not choosen while slats and taylor were there. Even he was overlooked for other lefty, unable to recall his name.

His impact went down moment he lost Langer as partner. Does that tell you something ?

If you want more evvidence

http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/current/story/384173.html

I liked watching him, his aggressive play. But for me Steve and Mark waugh are great coz when they played there were damn good bowling attcks still and they sccored against them. His away average gives out something to chew on !

I rest my case.

Till ponting retires :-)

Correction to an earlier post, Kapil Dev was dropped once for disciplinary reasons. I single test splitting is 131 test career into 65/66 gap. Then again he was not dropped for "playing" reasons

Jaques Kallis, Graeme Smith have never been dropped from test cricket.

one must see his stats in the away tests where he averages a meagre 41.69 with just 8 centuries. he played most of his matches on the same home grounds and piled 22 centuries there, and that bullying is a misnomer. he managed just three fifties in India after that epic series in 2001. he was a pretty ordinary batsman overseas and anything great he did was only on his home ground where he was piling up runs before being a test regular.

Aravinda was dropped in the early '00s for, um, poor shape. Marshall made his debut in the Packer-era Windies side and wasn't picked for a year or two when Roberts, Garner, Croft and Holding returned. But this criterion is merely a curiosity and doesn't say anything about a player's greatness since, Marshall, for example, is (arguably?) the greatest modern fast bowler.

Hayden is a very good batsman but not the greatest opener. Have we forgotten Hutton, Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Gavaskar, Greenidge, et al.? Even Taylor could be considered a better opener than Hayden. The former played in the era of Ambrose, Walsh, Donald, Wasim & Waqar (who are all better than Akhtar, btw) while Haydos only had to deal with Pollock among the great pace bowlers of recent times. Haydos was also rated below the likes of Slater, Blewett and Elliott in the 90s by the Aussie selectors and the pitches have become flatter in the past decade too.

I'm very sorry Hayden didn't get to tour England one more time. He averages a poor 34.5 over here. In 2005 he was completely Matthew Hoggard's bunny until the last test at the Oval, in which he scraped his way to a most uncharacteristic century. The Oval was the scene of his only other score above 50 in England, in 2001.

Marcus Trescothick was never dropped by England from either test or one-day side.

I personally think this is quite a useless discussion. First of all the man in question has very clearly been dropped in his career so why worry about who hasn't. Next, I would be more interested in an article about players who went on to become greats of the game after having difficult starts to their careers. Not being dropped in a career is an admirable feat, but even more admirable is the tenacity and determination to work hard and 'just get on with it' as Hayden has done with great success.

One must qualify the statement that"Only Bradman made more runs in fewer matches than Hayden" applies only to Sheffield Shield cricket. In any case that statement is a little misleading. Just doing a very crude runs per innings analysis on random players from the list of top scorers in sheffield shield cricket shows that a number of players were as profilic as if not more than Hayden (49.1/innings): Lehman (51.2), G Chappell (50.7) and even Bevan (50.3). If he scores at least 234 runs in his next two Shield matches, Simon Katich will for a moment have scored more runs in less matches than Hayden and he's not considered great.

This is not to knock Hayden, but that's a silly stat to use to determine the greatness of them.

I personally don't rate him as highly as Tendulkar, Lara and Hayden from modern players but he was for the duration of his career a cut above many players during his time and his numbers will hold up favourably even 20-30 years and beyond after his retirement.

To Cloudmess - Trescothick was never dropped? If correct, that's a real surprise to me. Good spotting! I would not have guessed it. Which just goes to prove that this criteria is definitely not a real benchmark for any hint of genuine greatness.
To Richard, how do you manage to turn this into a debate about proving one's nationality? T'was nothing more than a bit of fun about remembering some cricketers who may or may not have been dropped in their Test careers. Interesting to see that you can even turn something as bland as that into a comment about ethnicity! What does this topic have to do with being an Aussie, an Indian or anything else for that matter? Why insult anyone based on their nationality when all we're doing is indulging a shared love of cricket memories? Very odd...

Richard: As Jeh says, this is a friendly forum to air one's views, not to indulge in pettiness or to prove who is right or wrong. If you don't like it (the forum or the views) you are welcome to just pass by without making any comments. No one will miss your "words of wisdom".

Not just odd, pretty nasty.

To Michael and SouthPaw,
wish you had concentrated more on the other stuff written there. Anyway it was never meant to comment on anybody's ethnicity, but more of a observation about the tone of your blogs. Anyway Southpaw you should notice that I have always managed to ignore all of his previous blogs successfully, just that could not resist the temptation to jot down my observations in black and white one more time.
Hope next time instead of focusing on the negative tones, you focus on the more constructive matter that perhaps will titillate your Grey matter. :)
wish you good luck.

Michael,

I think if you take Haydens exploits against Zim & Ban away he wasn't much more than a Michael Slater or Mark Taylor.

Never succeeded on English pitches or against the swinging ball.. so to me he seems like a Dougy Walters character.. great against spin & against pace bowling on hard true bouncing wickets, but all at sea when the ball was moving and didn't really have the technology of say a Boycott to play beyond the age when his qucik hand eye co-ordination failed him.

Great to watch sometimes but clunky and agricultural at other times. Langer & Hayden were a great opening partnership up there with Woodfull/Ponsford. But I wouldn't mentioned Haydos in the same breath as a Pill Ponsford let alone an Arthur Morris. Sid Barnes? Now we are talking. Shame that Haydens reputation as a sledger par excellance will guarantee his looming anonymity.. a fate Ricky Ponting will have ponder shortly as well. Feared? Yes. Respected? Sometimes. Liked? No. A shame.

But Kapil Dev should have been dropped on form much before his retirement. There must be a number of players who got into the team on past reputation. So I am not sure this is a very good criteria for judging players.

Judging how great a player is from the number of times he has been dropped is certainly an interesting idea. But whether you are picked or not depends on so many other variables that as a judge of greatness it is grossly insufficient. Are you the only player in your role or are there many players vying for that role? Are you a consistent performer or do you have peaks when you are blasting everyone away followed by troughs? Do you have a reputation as a team player or a selfish player? How strong is the team you play for? How edgy are the selectors and the media in your country? The list can go on and on, but the point remains: how often you have been dropped is quite unsatisfactory as a way of deciding how great a player you are.

Just an interesting tidbit: in South Africa's first 30 or so tests since readmission, only two players played in all the tests. Their names? Dave Richardson and Hansie Cronje. Yep, no Allan Donald or Brian McMillan there.

Roshan Mahanama used to be Srilanka's opener for a long time. I dont know if he was dropped anytime in his career.